Porteus mills in the uk made such a good product they went out of business in the 1970s. And their mills are still used in the vast majority of distilleries in Scotland.
Most home appliances can be repaired even yet today. They all still work on the same principles that they did 60 years ago. Sure, the mechanical timers, switches and simple single phase motors have been replaced with solid state control boards, touch switches, and 3 phase motors, but those are also simpler to replace, if a bit harder to diagnose. The parts are a mere goggle away and for sale to even to the likes of me. About the only ‘impossible’ to repair at home appliance is your refrigerator. And that’s because of the sealed nature of the cooling system.
The biggest issue isn’t that they can’t be repaired, but rather you can’t be bothered to. You would rather spend $1000+ to get a new washing machine delivered to your house than spend $500 to fix the old one. You might consider fixing the old one if it would only cost $50 total and if the pump wasn’t $300+ labor and a $100 just to get a repairman to knock on your door. Plus the probable wait for a week or two to get the part. And you sure as hell ain’t going to get your fingers dirty or your knuckles skinned to do it yourself.
I’m still shaving with the same Gillette Slim Adjustable razor I learned to shave with as a youngster. It cost me about $10 in the early 1970s. The blades still only cost me about 15 cents per blade. I’ve had that razor for longer than I’ve been married to my wife of 40 years. I doubt few of you here would be able to make that kind of commitment to a simple razor, let alone a dishwasher.
Me when I have no idea how capitalism works lmao
That’s a horrible plan for a start-up.
How do your investors cash out?
in 2005ish, I went to Sears and picked up the most expensive bag vacuum. I think it was an elite something. 20 years later, I had to change out the hose once because I dropped it down the stairs and its been amazing.
If you take inflation into consideration, high quality products still exist at about the same price. Its just that there are now MUCH cheaper options now.
If you take inflation into consideration, high quality products still exist at about the same price. Its just that there are now MUCH cheaper options now.
I think the Sam Vimes Boots Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness plays a part as well:
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. … A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. … But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socio-economic unfairness.
As the saying goes, it is expensive to be poor.
If you take inflation into consideration, high quality products still exist at about the same price.
There’s another side to all this. We used to have appliance and, specifically, vacuum repair shops. Sometimes, the latter were franchise operations by manufacturer/brand. Electrolux and Oreck had stores that also did repairs, to name two. The business model had a lot in common with the auto industry at the time. To me, that stands as a cautionary tale of how things can get twisted around to cost the consumer more money in the long run, not less. I think it’s an important consideration, as old designs/patents were from and for a market serviced on all sides by this business model. But we can do better. If such products were designed to be user-servicable, there wouldn’t be a strong need/want to capture breakage as another revenue center.
So, we can absolutely bootstrap a new “buy for life” economy, but I think the downstream user hassle, repair, and secondary costs are crucial to consider.
Its just that there are now MUCH cheaper options now.
This is the part people keep ignoring. I keep calling it “realizing the actual cost of things.” Nowadays, you can buy cheap, but you’re going to get something fragile and packed-to-the-gills with surveillance and advertising. To get what grandma had (e.g. a refrigerator that runs for 50 years and just keeps food cold), anything cheaper than the inflation-adjusted equivalent costs you in other ways.
Meanwhile, over in the hobbyist and professional tool world, we’ve been saying “buy nice or buy twice” for a long time now.
There are also different standards when you care about the environment. Old school fridges used incredibly bad greenhouse gasses (R22 and R142B) and were significantly less efficient using approximately $250 MORE energy per year than a modern fridge (1750 kWh vs 450kwh) so only factoring in your electricity bill you could buy a $2500 fridge every 10 years and break even and if you got a cheaper fridge like a whirlpool you could get a new one every 5 years for 50 years
Don’t get me wrong there is still planned obsolescence but a lot of the older designs aren’t as perfect as people like to remember them being
I love buy nice or buy twice. I think Harbor freight gets a pass though.
The second buy can even be the nice one. If you’re unsure how much use the tool will get, buy cheap then upgrade after it breaks.
Great idea! Horrible for sales though. Plus no shareholder would wanna touch it with a 10-foot pole when they hear “customers first”
This is why you don’t do shareholders!
And stay small lol. I hate the corporate world (i work in it) but it is what it is
So, this is TOTALLY doable with two caveats:
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For most things, you’re going to need a variance on high-efficiency and pollution laws. Those old appliances weren’t sipping water and electricity, and their refrigeration cycles threw out tons of waste heat and used refrigerants that were super rough on the atmosphere.
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They’re going to cost 3 times as much as a current appliance. Those heavy metal fridges were expensive back in the day, they were equialent to thousands of dollars today with shitty freezers and manual defrosting. Cast metal and shipping are disproportionately more expensive than the used to be.
Optimize builds and manufacture after a order is made could work. Would be even more expensive.
Sell them uncharged. Up to the user to find the freeon.
or… art?
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We need a buyitforlife… Sublemmy? I forget the term
Brother there are five
i think it’s just called a community but someone correct me if i’m wrong
That’s correct.
and uses four times the electricity and substances that have been banned since the 80s
…and burns people’s homes down due to lack of safety features.
…and children choke to death from easily removable small parts.
…and people get electrocuted because of a lack of warning label telling them not to use it in the bath.
And killing americans because it doesn’t have enough warning labels.
“Does not grant you the ability to fly”
You say this like it’s a bad thing.
You do see how many mother fuckers are around now a days?
Mmm asbestos
Worry not, some of what’s perfectly fine nowadays will eventually be forbidden because how harmful it is for people, from micro-plastics that are being found even in men’s gonads to the excessive amounts of nitrous oxides emitted by diesel engine that kill over ten thousand people per year in Europe alone.
We probably still breathe and eat a lot of highly carcinogenic shit, just different shit from back in the days when asbestos was considered a great fire-proof substance.
Mmm ya and give me some lead to go with that asbestos please. Best combo
Get that asbestos, lead, microplastics trifecta in ya. You could be unstoppable!
Banning CFCs was the biggest hit to long-lasting, efficient AC and refrigeration.
It was also critical to stopping the complete removal of the fucking ozone layer.
That’s not to say we couldn’t build a lot more stuff without obsolescence fuses, unrepairable designs, and trickling out features to force unnecessary replacement.
And require regular matinence and still fail
Y’all are going to hate this, but IMO a more viable solution is a subscription model. The more reliable an appliance is, the less you spend on it in the long run, so less profit for the manufacturer. With a subscription, the more reliable they make it, the more profit they get. Then you just need sufficient competition to keep the subscription prices low.
Then you’d run into the same problem you have with insurance where they refuse to fix/replace your appliance because of “misuse” or something like that.
The problem here is the for-profit model that drives mass (over-)production and planned obsolescence.
We can do away with this if a company embraces a completely different model. Instead of doing the usual thing, go 100% on-demand with pre-orders, and only build what people want to buy. Then, keep moving horizontally into other product lines, following the demand and manufacturing need. Once pre-orders hit a given theshold, manufacturing starts for a given product. This eliminates all kinds of overhead and allows the company to survive by investing in multiple revenue streams. As a bonus: it’s a lot less wasteful since you never make more units than you can sell.
Subscriptions are like insurance and gym memberships. They’re profitable only if they represent value that is never fully realized by the consumer. They’re a really bad tax, and people dislike them for good reason. I want to buy a thing from a company, and that’s all; it’s not my responsibility to keep them afloat after that transaction.
Subscriptions are like insurance and gym memberships. They’re profitable only if they represent value that is never fully realized by the consumer.
Think of your monthly spending as a probability distribution. They provide value by reducing variance of that distribution at the cost of increasing the mean.
Consider at a more concrete example. You’re provided with two options:
- You get $100 a month guaranteed
- Flip a coin each month. On head, you get $200. On tail, you get nothing.
The expected value for both are the same, but option #1 is predictable. It’s the better option of the two unless you’re in a situation where getting $0 is effectively equivalent to getting $100. You would need to increase the amount you get in option #2 to make it worthwhile. Similarly, you can decrease the amount you get in option #1 and still have it be the better option.
By default, life is like option #2. The value proposition of insurance and the like is to give you option #1 with an amount lower than the expected value of #2, and in exchange, they get the difference as profit.
It’s like any other luxury.
Back in 1960, minimum wage was $1.00/hour. You could get a meal at a diner for under $1.00 or go to a really swanky place and spend $4.00 or $5.00.
Today, minimum wage is $7.50, a diner meal is $20.00, and a luxury meal is $100.00
You can go out a find a really well build product that will last, but it will cost ten times as much as the one you can afford.
This is true for some products but absolutely the opposite for many others. You can go buy a $500 jacket that will outlive you but good luck finding a car or fridge that won’t break, especially the high end models with all the bells and whistles. Samsung will happily sell you a $5k fridge that has dozens of features that will break and require servicing far more frequently than the $500 white apartment fridge.
Ah yes, the Sam Vimes’ boots theory
Nope, totally different.
Look at the price of Super Bowl tickets.
First Bowl tickets were $10.00. This year they were going for $6,000.00
Top luxury car in 1960 was $7,500.00 for a sports car and $35,000.00 for a Rolls or Bentley. Most expensive car today is $30 million.
The rich have gotten much, much richer and ‘need’ to spend more so people will notice.
I agree with your larger point, but I think the super bowl comparison is poor. Popularity has changed so ticket prices will have gone up. The first Super Bowl is not what it is today. The luxury car example was a much better like-for-like comparison.
That’s how you can tell Discworld is a work of fiction. It has rich people that are actually sensible about their wealth
In “The Stars My Destination” Alfred Bester wrote that conspicuous consumption was the basis of all civilization
Counter point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
Counter-counter point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint
Count pointer:
That’s actually the counter counter
Count Pointers:
Count Pointer:
*p++;
Contra Points:
Happy cake day
3
:3
I don’t think that’s relevant to this post. They aren’t saying that they want to recreate every old patented appliance. I am sure they would be cherry picking just the best ones from that era.
There are good appliances being made now. They’re just much more expensive than the cheap and “midrange” which is usually the cheap stuff with a coat of paint.
Or it’s just the cheap stuff with more “features”, so it actually breaks faster.
Guess how much its gonna cost
62€50
That would be relevant if we had no idea why the device broke down. In a plane shot down we can assume it was hit in a place that is critical to flight. We don’t know what took it down. We know the 5 year old fridge is not working because a $3 thermostat has stopped working but the part is not available and the computer onboard will not accept a generic one off the shelf.
Mostly survivorship bias
People have mentioned energy use and safety, but adjusting for inflation they were also way more expensive, a washing machine in the 50s was over $1000 in today’s dollars. If you’re willing to spend that much, you can find great reliable appliances with long lives.
That’s literally how much they cost now, or even much more and they last 10 years or maybe 15
There are tons of models out there that cost half that much. Sure, there are fancy ones with wifi and touch screens you can spend $1000+ on, but a basic washer is like $4-600.
And there were tons of ones back in the day that didn’t cost that much either.
Surprise, cheap stuff existed then too, it just didn’t survive like the expensive appliances.
The difference is now the expensive stuff ALSO barely lasts at all.
Sure it does, you just have to buy the stuff that’s expensive because it’s quality, not expensive because it has WiFi and touchscreens and stuff.
Yes but they hide that as much as possible.
- No longer warranty
- No specs that indicate longevity
- also has bullshit WiFi/touchscreens because it is so cheap to integrate for them
If you are extremely lucky, there is a review for that model somewhere that isn’t just paid advertising, but outside of the US with less-used models, that is pretty much a fantasy.
For example, even on the most expensive 1400€ Series 8 models Bosch (traditionally one of the best quality washers in the EU) now instead of a drum with bolts and a gasket, plastic welds their drum covers so it doesn’t last as long, breaks at the seam, and is almost impossible to repair correctly.
And their specs say the size, capacity, programs, and a few useless features like automatic dosing, lighting inside, and “led display” , and that is it.
Lol 1000 doesn’t even get you half way to a speed Queen. You just get the same low end shit except it’s got app or screen that with show you add eventually.
My Miele was €1500, and they are known to be super reliable. They engineer for at least a 20 year life span.
I think I paid around $1200 for my Maytag commercial, not one single problem in the last 5ish years.
I am ready to give that money, if the device will last for 50 years. But it is really hard to rely on the machines. Even the best ones may break after a few years.
I wonder how much that high cost could be reduced by modern manufacturing. Same/similar designs, but modern tooling and logistics.
I mean, they did not have CNC mills back then.
You are paying more for materials and labor though especially RnD
You could get something like this: https://c7.alamy.com/comp/3CRWJFN/hoover-washing-machine-magazine-advertisement-1953-3CRWJFN.jpg
For the equivalent of 425 dollars. Note that the “automatic pump” doesn’t FILL your machine, nor does this machine heat the water.
I paid 1K for a Whirlpool 6620.
You can buy appliances which will last that long, but they cost a lot of money. The reality isn’t that people forgot how to make things durable, it’s that consumer demand is so conditioned by price, most people “prefer” to spend less on appliances they will replace more often.
The average appliance these days is actually significantly cheaper when adjusted for inflation compared to the 60s and 70s.
One caveat I would note: lots of people can’t afford expensive, durable appliances.
It’s expensive to be poor.
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. … A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. … But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes ‘Boots’ theory of socio-economic unfairness.
Except good working boots are not cheaper just more comfortable. Due to the sole being a raised you need to replace it every 2-3 years which isn’t that cheap either. Speaking from experience
Yes, I’ve heard about that theory. The boot example is good because everyone can relate.
THIS.
Especially when it comes to things like Tvs.
“Would you like the extended warranty out to 5 years for an extra $200”
No because that would have made my $600 tv an $800 tv which will be made to look like a piece of crap by a $400 tv in 5 years.
This sounds great, I’d love to see an example if anyone has one handy for e.g. kitchen appliances.
Basically commercial grade equipment. A $10k oven/range which is designed to work 15 hours per day non-stop in a restaurant will last forever in your home. All the commercial manufacturers make “consumer sized” versions of their restaurant stuff for high end home kitchens.
