Interesting how it’s southern states at the top eh?
Can’t have anything to do with the fact that the US legally allows prisoner slavery right?
Winder what the race ratio of the prison population is.
This is the country routinely accusing other countries of having “prison camps.”
Interesting how it’s southern states at the top eh?
Legit amazed California wasn’t higher on the list. They’ve been doing mass-incarceration at an industrial scale since the 70s. But I guess the population is big enough that the per-capita statistics work out.
States like Alabama, Louisiana, and Oklahoma have such small and anemic populations and dedicate so much of their domestic budget to incarceration that they’re basically giant publicly subsidized slave plantations.
It’s too hilarious it can’t be intentional that the top country not America is El Salvador which is where you’re questionably sending all your black and brown people.
Nothing more American than privatizing and off-shoring our concentration camps.
Preach
I went to business school in the US about a decade ago (stayed full time engineer and happy about it) and I can absolutely see business schools unironically studying the process of privatizing and offshoring prisons as it relates to other more ethical and humane enterprises.
Isn’t that graph a bit misleading
In what way is it misleading? It seems straightforward to me.
I thought the states were being compared to other countries. Didn’t look properly on the phone.
They are. Just ALL the states are significantly worse than most countries.
Yes but that doesn’t really say much. We know it’s bad in the US. If all German states were bad that would still only tell you that in average it’s bad in Germany
not really. the fact that Louisiana has nearly double the rate of Oregon is significant. so is the fact that
racistsouthern states are at the top and are the ones beating the us average.
Even if, I think it’s still a valid comparison as it’s a rate.
They are, and I agree it’s misleading. It’s implying that it’s somehow shocking that the individual states of the county with the highest incarceration rate in the world also have a high incarceration rate. If it was absolute numbers, it would maybe make a point. As it is, it’s stating the extremely obvious and framing it as “look, it’s even worse than you thought”.
It shows which US states contribute more to the US incarceration rate and clearly shows that even those that contribute the least are above the majority of the nations’ incarceration rates. The latter is not obvious without visualizing the data in this way.
If it was absolute numbers, it would maybe make a point.
If you have a population with 10M people and 20,000 of them are prisoners, that’s significantly less concerning than a country with 100,000 people of which 10,000 are prisoners. You can’t make an apples-to-apples comparison between Texas and Wyoming with raw head-count.
it’s somehow shocking that the individual states of the county with the highest incarceration rate in the world also have a high incarceration rate
It’s shocking that the state of Louisiana has a full 2% of its population in jail. That’s twice the US national baseline.
Wait… isn’t ~1,000 per 100,000 much closer to 1% than 2%?
It’s still mind boggling, not trying to minimize it.
Yes, but that is not how the graph is framed. It’s framed as “look, if we put US states on a graph with other countries, they have such a high incarceration rate that there are almost no countries even on the graph!”
If it was honest and just trying to compare the incarceration rate of US states amongst each other (and the national average) it wouldn’t be titled “[…] in U.S. states and all countries […]”. It’s a clearly manipulative title.
The reason that a graph with this title could maybe make a point if it was absolute numbers is that most U.S. states’ population is less than most countries, so if individual states were still high on such a graph, that would be shocking.
It’s framed as “look, if we put US states on a graph with other countries, they have such a high incarceration rate that there are almost no countries even on the graph!”
It’s certainly possible that you have one big state with a high incarceration rate - Texas or California for instance - that’s throwing off the national average. States are free to set their own penal process. It’s not a given that every state has a globe-shattering incarceration rate.
Saying “It’s not just one or two states with astronomical incarceration rates, its the whole country contributing to the total” indicates something notable about the politics and culture of the country as a whole.
Wyoming could have an incarceration rate of 0% without affecting America’s position as a carceral state. That it doesn’t is meaningful.
Thank you that’s what I meant, I just couldn’t put it into words properly.
How is a per-capita incarceration rate, with a reference to the superset included directly on the plot, misleading? Other than including more than El Salvador for the sake of external reference, which is almost certainly a size issue.
I thought the states were being compared to other countries. Didn’t look properly on the phone.
They are (which is the point) the countries are in orange USA (as an overall average) and el Salvador are the only countries that make it on to the list.
They are! The other countries are so far down on the graph they are not visible
Well yes because the US as a whole has a high number. If you added cities they would have even more in the high numbers. What’s the point about that?
Because US states have populations and areas comparable to other countries. Just the US topping the charts is expected. How many states you have to get through to see other countries is interesting.
See? This makes it look like it’s as misleading as I said. This is prisoners per 100.000, that means it doesn’t matter how populous a state or country is. That’s exactly why comparing states with countries is misleading. For every state that has a higher number than the US average there’s states that have a lower number.
LOL just calculated for my country and we’re at 100 per 100000
Worthwhile note to people too lazy to click on the link is that this is the 2021 version. In June 2024 (which is linked at the top of the linked article) the numbers look a little different but not much better for the US.
The top score would be Gaza tho with 100% of its population being prisoners of Israel.
Statistics are Khammaaaaz!!!
Israel is trying to zero out that number as quickly as they can.
The proposed stat is '20% of the world’s prison population". No country can ever reach 100% while any other country on Earth has at least 1 prisoner.
what “slavery is allowed if the enslaved person is a prisoner” does to you
UHHH THATS JUST BECAUSE CHINA IS LYING HAHAA YOU REALLY BELIEVE THEIR OWN NUMBERS LOL??? oh third parties provided that data…. UHH WELL THEY DONT HAVE IPHONES AND THEYRE ALL POOR. oh… wait, they do have iphones now and china has a stronger middle working class than the US and canada?
hold on i need to go watch my tv for a couple hours to get a few more talking points but im gonna come back to this post and fucking own you
CHINA ONLY PRODUCES GARBAGE BTW. oh what? They have actually quality products, they just ship out cheap garbage to suckers?
More creepy US prison statistics.
One is labeled as authoritarian dystopia while the other as a beacon of freedom, it’s like we live in the upside down.
The rest are in undeclared labor camps
Goes for both
The rest are in undeclared labor camps
Goes for both
US labor camps are not undeclared (though extraterritorial black sites are). They’re called prisons, and the labor is slave labor, thanks to the 13th amendment.
The previous user is a bit off base with the labor camps idea (not to say that the Xinjiang detention camps for Uyghurs aren’t widely known), but it is worth noting that China does utilize administrative detentions/行政拘留 for smaller offenses which are kept statistically separate from prison counts.
If Raiden needs a source, the law covering administrative detentions can be reviewed here:
but it is worth noting that China does utilize administrative detention
Isn’t that the same as Jails in the US which is separate from prison statistics?
Jail is where you go for the night when arrested for disorderly conduct and are released the next day.
Administrative detentions can be longer. On paper they can hold you about a month, but it can be longer than that with a judge’s signoff if they have proof of a crime.
This is typically where the police try to get you to confess to something and drag it out as long and uncomfortably as possible until you do, after which you either get to go free (though you end up on a list for a long time) or you may go to a “black jail”/黑監獄 which is a sort of under-the-table prison.
The terms of release can also sometimes require completion of a rehabilitation program, which is often the voluntary alternative to prison, or getting transferred to a short stay detention center for a few months to perform community service.
Administrative detentions can be longer. On paper they can hold you about a month, but it can be longer than that with a judge’s signoff if they have proof of a crime.
And in the US, jail can be up to just short of a year.
This is typically where the police try to get you to confess to something and drag it out as long and uncomfortably as possible until you do, after which you either get to go free (though you end up on a list for a long time) or you may go to a “black jail”/黑監獄 which is a sort of under-the-table prison.
The terms of release can also sometimes require completion of a rehabilitation program, which is often the voluntary alternative to prison, or getting transferred to a short stay detention center for a few months to perform community service.
So pretty similar to the US.
And in the US, jail can be up to just short of a year.
I’d like to point out, ‘proper’ jail, for misdemeanor level offenses, is ‘up to a year,’ but I personally know individuals who have been in jail (where people awaiting trial stay, in addition to people convicted of misdemeanors) for over three years now, still waiting on their trial.
Yeah, the justice system in the US is pretty fucked up. Provably so, with plenty of data made publicly available to back it up.
That meme is working extra hard today but it’s just so perfect for the occasion.
Jail is usually for holding during due process and for sentences up to a year. Prison is generally for sentences longer than a year.
Xinjiang reeducation camps were closed around 2022 though?
Source: The US propaganda you received and believe uncritically.
What’s next, you explaining their inherent need to lie because of their race?
So the US is still on top 👍
The reeducation camps closed years ago. Here you have a western source claiming so:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/23/china-xinjiang-crackdown-uyghurs-surveillance/
Surely a champion of Uyghur rights would be aware of this already?
Woah watch out. You might offend Red Scare propagandists
ITT: Liberals who assume that evil Chinese MUST be lying about their statistics but the above board whites of the USA are not.
13th is a really good documentary. Indentured Survitude
Your brain on for-profit prisons:
I’m not saying the US isn’t shit with for profit prisons, but I’m not believing shit for any number that China provides on pretty much anything.
Interesting because the number comes from the Institute for Criminal Research and not China, but go on with your total and complete acceptance of US propaganda and unfound hatred of China.
Removed by mod
fucking hell you’re a propagandized racist loser
Removed by mod
We don’t believe our governments propaganda
You say, after regurgitating a bunch of your governments propaganda
To be fair, China is 2nd in overall prison population by country globally, so it’s not like their numbers are complete bs. I’m sure there is some fudging in what constitutes as a “prisoner” when they
havehad “re-education camps” though. That said, the US’s numbers are fucking insane.they have “re-education camps” though
Do they, though? You, as a champion of human rights in China, are aware that the reeducation camps are closed for years now, aren’t you?
I’m sure the government that lied about wrongly imprisoning people in the first place is totally being truthful now.
I wouldn’t take the Chinese or US government’s claims at face value.
If by “the government” you mean “The Washington Post” and much more western media, then sure
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/23/china-xinjiang-crackdown-uyghurs-surveillance/
There’s an example article, a quick google for “China closed reeducation camps” will throw more results if you feel like doing a bit of research on the brave defence of human rights that you champion.
And the information they publish comes from where exactly?
There is no need for snarkiness, by the way. You act like Im attacking you directly. If this is how you communicate, I’m just going to block you and move on with my life.
the information they publish comes from where exactly?
As per the article: “A nine-day reporting trip by The Washington Post through the region…”.
I understand you’re not attacking me directly, but it’s so exhausting seeing the same talking points of concern trolls like you who have heard on reddit and Lemmy about the Uyghurs, and uncritically swallowed the western propaganda and champion the rights of an ethnic minority in China. And when confronted with stuff you don’t know, such as the camps being closed for years, you jump to saying “according to whom, to the government?” and when confronted with the fact that it’s western media publishing this, you go ahead and go yo claim “where does this come from exactly?” as if journalistic work wasn’t possible or as if the information wasn’t literally on the third paragraph of the link I sent.
As per the article: “A nine-day reporting trip by The Washington Post through the region…”.
Ah, interesting. My apologies, I’ve been driving all day and have been checking my phone sporadically and haven’t had the time to properly read the article. I have now.
but it’s so exhausting seeing the same talking points of concern trolls like you who have heard on reddit and Lemmy …
I totally understand, and I do apologize for propagating this behaviour. My knowledge was outdated and that’s no one’s fault but my own.
All in all though, my whole point is honestly just that I don’t really trust any government to be totally truthful in regards to information they share, regardless of whether that’s the US, China, or even my home country, and my initial assumption was that this information was coming from them directly. Clearly, I was incorrect in this case, spouted some outdated shit confidently, and I apologize. I appreciate your patience.
I mean, googling that does not give the result you claimed it would. In fact, it talks more about how they opened up different types of camps instead
It talks about how they opened up prisons, which is exactly what this post takes into account. There are more people in prisons in the US than in the entirety of China.
You clearly have done 0 research on this topic, and until 5 minutes ago you believed that the reeducation camps were still open and ongoing, despite them closing years ago. Educate yourself on the conditions of the people who you pretend to care about, or stop with your concern trolling.
Real easy to get the numbers though
Wow China really dropped the ball on this one.
The red army of china didn’t really take prisoners.
What are you talking about have you never heard of
emperorComrade Puyi?
This happened right before the cultural revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine might have helped cut down the potential prison population…
Edit, digging this up from 5 threads deep:
…I understand what per-100,000 means, but I also understand that not all groups of 100,000 people are the same; removing a large sub-population of people that doesn’t exactly match the overall population’s average will result in a change to the overall population average.
If you have a total population (T), and you are measuring the rate of an event (E), then E / T gives your average event rate for the total population, which you can then normalize to a per-X number. For example: T = 1000 people E = 10 incarcerations. 10 / 1000 = .01, normalized to per 100 capita would be 1 per 100 people on average, from the total population.
If you have a sub-demographic in that population (Ts), and it has a different rate of an event (Es) then its rate is also Es / Ts. For example: Ts = 100 poor-people Es = 5 incarcerations. 5 / 100 = .05, normalized to a per 100 capita would be 5 people per 100 on average, for that sub-population.
If you suddenly remove that sub-population, what happens to the rate of the overall population? That’s easy to calculate: (E - Es) / (T - Ts) (10 - 5) / (1000 - 100) = 5 / 900 = .0055, normalized to a per 100 capita would be .55.
Suggesting that a sub-demographic doesn’t perfectly match the per-capita average of an entire population and that removing them would change the overall per-capita rate isn’t nonsense.
You can read the chart: incarceration rate per 100,000.
Yeah but everyone knows the US has more people per capita than anywhere else
My brain had to do a hard reset after reading that. Thanks, I hate it, lol
maybe they really mean it, where companies are people but not capita
More people…per capita…🤯
Nicely done, I approve.
More people per people
The trick is to call fertilized embryos people and use dead women as incubators
Let me address a few things. First, I didn’t post my response because I think the incarceration rate in the U. S. is OK. It’s not. Incarceration of non-violent criminals is especially aggregeous. Private for profit prisons are a horrible idea.
I responded because the OP posted an image comparing the incarceration rates of the CCP’s cultural revolution to the current U.S. incarceratiom rate. The implication is that because the per-capita incarceration rate was lower in China during that time, it was a nicer place to live than current-day America. That ignores the part where the Chinese government starved to death 15,000,000 - 55,000,000 people, or put in Americanized terms: somewhere between the entire population of Pennsylvania to the entire populations of California AND Pennsylvania.
Claiming that a per-capita measurement normalizes all factors, makes a sampling error based on survivorship bias. It is highly unlikely that the overlap of people who starved to death during the CCP’s famine had the same incarceration rate of those who did not. I’m guessing rich and party aligned individuals had a much lower rate of both starvation and incarceration.
This would certainly be true in the U.S; Incarceration rates are much higher for low-income individuals: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html. Low income individuals are also more likely to starve to death in a famine* (*citation needed). Now imagine if the United States government starved to death the poorest 10,000,000 people in the U.S. and then started bragging about how much it’s per-capita incarceration rates have improved!
The CPC did not starve to death millions of people. There was famine in China from natural causes, and the CPC did their best to alleviate that as best they could, even if millions ended up starving despite their best efforts. The PRC is still a developing country, and this was ever more true during the Cultural Revolution. The Cultural Revolution had its fair share of issues, the modern CPC doesn’t look fondly upon it, but the famine would have happened even without Communists in charge, and in fact it did! Famine was common in China before it industrialized under the CPC.
There was famine in China from natural causes
From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
It is widely regarded as the deadliest famine and one of the greatest man-made disasters in human history
(Emphasis mine.)
Also, regardless of the reason my other points stand: having millions of poor people starve to death will reduce you incarceration rate, and people might choose to live in a country with a higher incarceration rate if it means they don’t starve to death.
The Great Chinese Famine was caused by a combination of radical agricultural policies, social pressure, economic mismanagement, and natural disasters such as droughts and floods in farming regions.
From Wikipedia. Western scholars exaggerate the human factors and minimize the environmental, which were the cause.
From Prolewiki:
It is true that agricultural production decreased in five years between 1949 and 1978 due to “natural calamities and mistakes in the work.” However, during 1949 and 1978, the per hectare yield of land sown with food crops increased by 145.9% and total food production rose 169.6%. During this period China’s population grew by 77.7%. On these figures, China’s per capita food production grew from 204 kilograms to 328 kilograms in the period in question.
China did not have a famine because of communism. China had a natural famine and while some policies strengthened it, others minimized it.
To be perfectly clear, I don’t subscribe to the notion that communism is bad and capitalism is good. I think every socio-economic system has pros and cons and are prone different forms of degredation and usurption.
I think the people leading a country and the people that comprise its society have a larger impact on life than their system of government.
With that said, a government is ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of its people.
It’s the system that determines how its run, not the people at the top. Your analysis is teetering into Great Man Theory territory, which is derived from Idealism, not Materialism. The mode of production is primary.
Secondly, yes, the government is responsible. Is the government also responsible for drought, though? What should be judged is that, as I stated, food production was dramatically improved, and the government eliminated famine in a country where famine was common prior to Socialism.
For what it’s worth, capitalism is progressive compared to feudalism, but regressive as compared to socialism.
First of all, I’ll take the honour of using .world’s favourite word: whataboutism much?
Second of all, wow, there was a hunger episode as a consequence of bad ecological policy on a preindustrial society?!
BTW, life expectancy in China at the beginning of the socialist revolution was 35 years, by the time Mao died it was above 55. Those are hundreds of millions of lives saved.
