inspired by lemmitors at https://lemmy.ml/post/49343381
any guy in it just for women to wear skimpier clothing should probably be investigated.
This is goofy. Not one of us can wear whatever we want in USA (and many other countries). All sorts of rules on dress.
Dress codes for restaurants (jackets and ties required)… dress codes for schools (uniforms)… dress codes for jobs (uniforms)… dress codes for gas stations (no shirts, no shoes, no service)… dress codes for banks (can’t cover your face or wear sunglasses)…
This is a false issue, used to inflame the dumbest among us. Sadly, it still works.
Right, so why all the pearl-clutching over head coverings?
A Turkish acquaintance of mine from a long time ago introduced me to the idea of reform Islam. I didn’t know that it existed, but she was a practitioner. She didn’t wear a hijab, she swore when she felt like it, and she wore shorts when it was hot outside. Her prayers were usually sitting quietly and humming to herself when her phone alarm went off. Whenever we did an art project, she’d do this big long prayer to dedicate it.
Nice girl. Hope she’s doing okay.
Idk how it’s so difficult for westerners to understand that not all Muslims who consider themselves practicing Muslims observe all parts of the faith. There’s so many Catholics who disregard lent, hardly anybody listens to the dietary restrictions, there’s almost none who acknowledge Jesus’ teachings on wealth. Do all Catholics choose not to use condoms? Do all of them have the same opinion on abortion?
But I do realize it’s part of looking at the out-group as a monolith at best and a hive mind at worst.
it’s perfectly fine to judge the members of a group that follows a set of texts by what those texts say
Because there only ever is one interpretation of any text and religious people famously all agree on it.
Because everyone who professes to a given religion has access to, reads and observes the texts and definitely doesn’t just go with whatever everyone else is doing and saying and getting their religious belief through osmosis.
Because different sects and cultures don’t weigh some parts heavier than others and local cultural practices and superstitions play no role in how people observe or ignore the text.
Because the text is the only thing that defines a religion and there is nothing else to it.
And of course because you definitely understand the text by just skimming it until you find whatever verse lets you feel euphoric through enlightenment by your own intelligence.
I think a lot of the reddit type atheists are so far removed from religion in general they only view religious people as a cartoonishly idealized strawman that has no thoughts other than what their book says and their preacher teaches, who every second of every day is thinking only about god and how to be more godly and who believes the simplest interpretation of their religion. I have encountered it quite a few times as well since my username “outs” me as christian.
It’s that plus for muslims the sheer racism that makes for a particularly potent mixture of arrogance and ignorance resulting in this weird “white savior thats sneering at their lessers” postings
Americans scrapped Roe vs Wade but think bikini = equality
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I think this is post is also about places like France trying to dictate that Muslim women can’t wear hijabs in certain places (namely pools).
a) that really depends on where in amerikkka you are
b) this is exactly about women dressing up as slutty as they want which might include not at all
c) claiming that the US is not a misogynistic shithole is absolutely laughable racist arrogance
What a rabbithole to go down.
I agree no one should have the right tell someone else what to wear, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a tool of oppression in other cultures
You have no idea about other cultural norms and attires. Is the western man being oppressed when he has to wear a tie and suit to the office in order to keep his job? Do we free him from this oppression by ostracizing him or making it illegal for wearing a tie?
You know, this is a fair point, but there’s a few differences.
Not all jobs require a suit, there’s a lot of choice (you could get through life never wearing one). Its also only required during working hours. Not around the clock. Women have been killed over these expectations. Its not the same.
Women have been killed over these expectations
Is that really what you think muslims support?? Can you not conceive of people wanting to wear a hijab?? And even if not, why is it so hard to accept that it’s just a fact when they say it??
Is the western man being oppressed when he has to wear a tie and suit to the office in order to keep his job?
Suits are expensive and unnecessary. Some people (i.e. autistic) might have sensory difficulties when they wear them. If someone is vegan, most suits aren’t so it further restricts what they can wear and they have to worry more about differences in look due to the stricter dress code. Fortunately, being restricted only while working certain jobs isn’t as bad as being restricted in all public spaces.
Do we free him from this oppression by ostracizing him or making it illegal for wearing a tie?
No
But is he being oppressed?
Yes
Alright! So we agree that ostracizing people or making it illegal for them to wear what they wear is not going to lead to a more free society?
I already said that
Then I don’t know what you were trying to say with your original comment other than agreeing with me?
Brown people culture bad amiright?
I absolutely did not say that, nor do I believe that in the slightest
Civil rights according to liberals :
You are looking for the word “conservatives”
Conservatives don’t need their consent manufactured to go bomb people. This is for liberals. This is to make them believe that they need to save people by bombing them.
Fuck clothes. Like, FUCK CHOTHES! Do y’all think that’s the most pressing issue of our times?!?!?
Thank goodness the adults are in the room telling us that only one subject can be discussed in the world at a time
Leave the thread. Shut the fuck up. Do some self crit.
Filthy liberal, kids are dying right now in Gaza. The West is a lost cause.
Womens clothes are an incredibly easy litmus test. It’s so easy to check if someones “feminism” extends to trans women and muslim women unconditionally.
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Did you know that in Iran the state subsidizes gender affirming care?
Nobody was ever kill for wearing hijab A lot were killed for taking him off. Your false equivalence is revolting.
islamophobic murders exist and people absolutely get attacked and harassed for wearing a hijab. You ignoring the racism in your own country in order to brow-beat a region under constant attack under the guise of “human rights” is what’s revolting.
It’s like making it illegal for women to wear makeup and thinking you are “freeing them of cultural values originating from patriarchy.”
I personally would like governments to NOT force a specific gender to look a specific way.
Lol that thread is a cesspool but I’m glad in classic lemmy fashion, its not shadow banned or locked.
I don’t want to add more fuel to the flames but it’s a case example of why I don’t take the EU seriously when it comes to free speech laws or claims of “secularity”.
France and UK were out here blocking Bosnia from arming itself during the genocide carried out by Serbia because they didn’t want a muslim country to exist in Europe.
feddit banned luigi and pro gaza content because it’s apparently illegal to discuss those topics in Germany, as if an internet forum talking about foreign news needs to be regulated by the government.
It’s not as bad as reddit, but there are some seriously god awful comments on that post trying to justify poorly disguised ethnic filtering laws.
The whole idea of wearing a piece of clothing for some god is cringe as fuck.
Cringe must of course be eradicated by the state.
Calling what others like to do “cringe” is the cringiest thing of them all
true, but forcing someone not to wear something by law doesn’t address the cringe. the problem is the force, not the clothes.
I think all adult women should be able to wear whatever they want.
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Women need the agency to decide for themselves, and not have the decision made for them by men, or the state. The only way any clothing is really oppressive is if it isn’t a choice, and in that way “not being allowed to wear” is the same as “being forced to wear”. It seems like you are defending the choice being taken from women under the mask of pretending to support the choice being given to them, by pointing to something not even being argued about as the covering mask, like a strawman.
If women were choosing to wear hijab with out the cultural, familial or state pressure you’d see women doing exactly that from other parts of the world where Islam isn’t enforcing it, you don’t see that because it’s not a free choice being made, acquiescing to pressure isn’t actually a choice.
Wherever you find Muslims in the world, you will find someone wearing hijab. If you punish women for wearing it, you are not better than those who punish them for not wearing it.
It’s extremely rare outside of countries that don’t enforce it, the Muslim women I know who still choose to wear hijab are from strict families. I have quite a few Muslim friends, most of whom are women, most of whom are not hijabis and don’t support the practice as public policy and find the pressure to wear it when they go home to be extremely uncomfortable. There’s a reason they feel that way, there’s a reason Muslim women who emigrate tend to stop wearing it, because they were pressured to do so it wasn’t a free choice. Is it 100% obviously no but frankly the exception proves the rule here
Do you think it’s possible that Muslim émigrés might feel social pressure in their new homes not to wear a hijab? I’ve heard quite a few women say they wear it for themselves as an expression of their faith. I can’t very well discount that possibility. Of course there are all sorts of social and familial pressures (and norms) that we all face. Many of which are largely taken for granted by those affected, even me and you!
With or without culture it is not your decision to make O Enlightened Savior!/s This thread is so full of poorly hidden sexist and racist nonsense that it is sickening. The western world is not the savior of the world, it is it’s oppressor, and the oppressor’s feigned concern while it eye’s those resources of the oppressed licking it’s lips, can only be inauthentic from such a position, clean your own house before trying to use the level of cleanness of someone else’s house as some kind of excuse.
Really wish I had that lady izdihar video right now… dude’s as confident as he is wrong…
It is a type of clothing that many women consciously choose and desire to wear. Some countries mandate it, but it is not much less rational than a mandate to cover chest and genitals in christian culture countries.
But what if… it is? It very much could be, just like nuns clothing.
there are plenty of muslim countries that ban burkas/some of the other extreme coverings, all anyone in the west should need to know to support it
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What do you think is the intolerance here that one needs to be intolerant of?
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So you’re just openly advocating for being intolerant of Islam?
why should one be made to tolerate an idealogy that says all who don’t follow it should face eternal conscious torment?
It doesn’t though? Famously non-muslims can get into heaven by living a virtuous life?? I had so many muslims tell me that it’s all good we pray to the same god, or that in the end it’s up to the all-knowing and merciful judge. People who say shit like you have so obviously not spent time with muslims it’s bonkers
If you mean it how I think you do, then you very much deserve it.
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should safeguard muslim women in our own country?”
Crickets
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should go to war with Israel to protect muslim women?”
Crickets
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should end sanctions so muslim women and their children don’t starve to death?”
Crickets
truth nuke
But don’t you know that being against starving the muslims of Palestine is antisemitic!?
Israel has a right to
genocide, torture & rapeself-defence!I highly doubt many hands would be raised.
