Like there was no other option, like, hmmm, helping Poland fight nazis, and winning the war at the beginning?
The soviets tried forming an anti-nazi alliance before the war started. Promising to send in a million men. They were turned down and upon realising they were on their own, seeked out a non-aggression pact with the Nazis (which everyone had already done up to that point).
No they signed a non-aggression pact which everyone else had done at the time. The pact had spheres of influence, a clear “don’t fuck with us when we do things here and we won’t fuck with you do things there” there was nothing in it that said anything about some military alliance to invafe Poland.
Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed 2 weeks before the nazi invasion of Poland and 1 week before it was signed by the supreme soviet. You don’t attack a country together within a week that requires months of time planning.
The Nazis invaded Poland and the polish government went into exile so the soviets rushed in to prevent land that was historically part of their territory and inhabited by many ethnic Belorussians and Ukrainians from being occupied by the Nazis. Land that had been taken from them by Poland in their war of aggression to achieve their maximum historical borders even though as I mentioned had spent so much time outside of Polish control now had sizable Belarusian and Ukrainian inhabitants.
Of course, were we to live in a timeline where the soviets did leave all of Poland to be occupied by the Nazis. Idiots like you would be going on about how stupid and evil the soviets were for not doing anything from preventing the land from falling into Nazi hands. Doing nothing to protect the people living there when they had the opportunity and allowing the Nazis to get a border even closer.
You’re getting called fash because you’re using fascist talking points regarding the soviets.
The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances.
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.
Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.
The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported. Calling it “genocide” while Nazi-occupied Poland was subject to the Holocaust is tantamount to Holocaust trigialization. There’s mountains of evidence against the documents listed as “proof” of Soviet guilt in the Katyn Massacre:
The mistakes and inconsistencies in this letter are many. To start, the letter is “Top Secret”. Standard procedure for a “Top Secret” letter were to write on the letter the name of the person who typed it, the names of all the persons who have seen the document, the names of all persons to whom this letter is to be sent, the number of copies made of this letter, the carbon paper used to make a copy of it and finally the tape of the typewriter used to make this paper. For the “Beria document”, none of these exist. Without these precautions, it is not a “Top Secret” letter. The forger of this document either was not aware of the requirements of a “Top Secret” paper, or such requirements could not be forged by them. Either way, this paper immediately looses its value, and furthermore shows it is a forgery.
But the mistakes do not stop here. The signatures of the members of the Politburo go against the form. In this letter, 4 members of the Politburo have simply signed their names. By this act, they have rejected the request of Beria. You see, if the members of the Politburo agreed to send out an order or to carry out a request, it was necessary for them to sign the document, and to write next to their signatures “agreed” or “after”. In order for the request to be agreed and the order to be sent out, the members had to express their agreement to the request or their agreement to an order being sent. If they simply signed the paper, it meant that the members had read the document, but had not agreed to it and had not sent out any orders. The forger was obviously not aware of this and has made the mistake. Even if this request is authentic, which it is not, it was not accepted by the Politburo.
On the first page of the document, along with the four signatures of Stalin, Molotov, Mikoyan and Voroshilov, the forger added the names of Kaganovich and Kalinin underneath these. What the forger was not aware of, is that both Kaganovich and Kalinin were absent from the 13th Session of the Politburo in March 1940. They could not have placed their signatures on this document.
Had the USSR attacked Nazi Germany, they would have lost. The west was non-commital and refused to make an anti-Nazi alliance with the soviets, despite a decade of trying to form one, and evidence that the west would help the Nazis if the USSR attacked first. What the soviets did instead was prevent the Holocaust from spreading. There was no genocide committed by the soviets against the Polish, this is fascist Double Genocide Theory.
Everyone agrees that soviets did it. There is no other way. Sorry, but you don’t have any evidence, and pretending that some soviets documents might not be real, does not change the facts. Genocide did on a soviet soil, on the people arrested by soviets. A lot of letters and so on were found, and we know that soviets did it.
This is cope. You have no proof nor explanation why the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves, nor why the ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made, nor why the supposed “evidence” is marked with fabrications, nor why eyewitnesses claimed the Nazis did it. Just claiming I have no evidence despite the fact that your only evidence is Geobbels doesn’t make you right.
I’m facist because I’m saying the same thing as russian historians, and government, stating that russia attacked Poland in 1939, and then soviets are responsible for Katyn?
You’re getting called a fascist because you’re an anti-communist that is repeating narratives created by Nazi propagandists, including Double Genocide Theory.
I love how the Nazis were causing havock across the east massacring everything to colonise the land they felt entitled to because of their supposed master race. Yet the moment the soviets start pushing them back and shattering their delusions they immediately call fowl and point to a massacre that looked like what they themselves had been doing the entire time. Basically saying to the west “No no guys stop fighting us. It’s the soviets that are the REAL bad guys look what they did! You should be fighting alongside us instead”
The soviets tried forming an anti-nazi alliance before the war started. Promising to send in a million men. They were turned down and upon realising they were on their own, seeked out a non-aggression pact with the Nazis (which everyone had already done up to that point).
And that’s way they signed Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, and then together with Nazis, they attacked Poland?
Nice strategy.
No they signed a non-aggression pact which everyone else had done at the time. The pact had spheres of influence, a clear “don’t fuck with us when we do things here and we won’t fuck with you do things there” there was nothing in it that said anything about some military alliance to invafe Poland.
Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed 2 weeks before the nazi invasion of Poland and 1 week before it was signed by the supreme soviet. You don’t attack a country together within a week that requires months of time planning.
The Nazis invaded Poland and the polish government went into exile so the soviets rushed in to prevent land that was historically part of their territory and inhabited by many ethnic Belorussians and Ukrainians from being occupied by the Nazis. Land that had been taken from them by Poland in their war of aggression to achieve their maximum historical borders even though as I mentioned had spent so much time outside of Polish control now had sizable Belarusian and Ukrainian inhabitants.
Of course, were we to live in a timeline where the soviets did leave all of Poland to be occupied by the Nazis. Idiots like you would be going on about how stupid and evil the soviets were for not doing anything from preventing the land from falling into Nazi hands. Doing nothing to protect the people living there when they had the opportunity and allowing the Nazis to get a border even closer.
Removed by mod
You’re getting called fash because you’re using fascist talking points regarding the soviets.
The communists spent the decade prior trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.
Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.
The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported. Calling it “genocide” while Nazi-occupied Poland was subject to the Holocaust is tantamount to Holocaust trigialization. There’s mountains of evidence against the documents listed as “proof” of Soviet guilt in the Katyn Massacre:
Skip to the “forgeries” section.
Again, the reason you’re getting called fascist is because you are regurgitating fascist talking points surrounding the soviets.
Removed by mod
Incorrect.
Had the USSR attacked Nazi Germany, they would have lost. The west was non-commital and refused to make an anti-Nazi alliance with the soviets, despite a decade of trying to form one, and evidence that the west would help the Nazis if the USSR attacked first. What the soviets did instead was prevent the Holocaust from spreading. There was no genocide committed by the soviets against the Polish, this is fascist Double Genocide Theory.
This is cope. You have no proof nor explanation why the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves, nor why the ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made, nor why the supposed “evidence” is marked with fabrications, nor why eyewitnesses claimed the Nazis did it. Just claiming I have no evidence despite the fact that your only evidence is Geobbels doesn’t make you right.
You’re getting called a fascist because you’re an anti-communist that is repeating narratives created by Nazi propagandists, including Double Genocide Theory.
I love how the Nazis were causing havock across the east massacring everything to colonise the land they felt entitled to because of their supposed master race. Yet the moment the soviets start pushing them back and shattering their delusions they immediately call fowl and point to a massacre that looked like what they themselves had been doing the entire time. Basically saying to the west “No no guys stop fighting us. It’s the soviets that are the REAL bad guys look what they did! You should be fighting alongside us instead”
Yep, Geobbels was even upset at first that the Nazis rediscovered Katyn and thought it would be bad PR for them, before inventing the soviet story.
It’s not like Poland want to attack Nazi Germany in 1933, but no one wanted to join…