Just don’t accidentally abort your Arch updates partway through.
That’s a lesson you’ve got to learn just once…
I do believe it’s not just one of the things to keep getting better, it’s a blueprint for the things we want to build in the future. From software to society. More individual participation, less corporate involvement, zero corporate ownership of essentials.
My current enemy is the stranglehold of corporate OSs in the mobile space. That really really needs to go for good.
I agree, however, rather than individual participation, I would say Linux represents a victory for the collective spirit. Yes Linus has spearheaded the kernal development for years, but without all the other contributors sacrificing countless hours, Linux wouldn’t be nearly as successful (and ubiquitous) as it is. Linux demonstrates that we, as a community, can come together to work towards something we know is good and right, without the drive of monetary gain or social recognition, but just because it’s fun, or fills a need, or helps us learn.
That’s one of the biggest reasons I think Linux is so evangelised on Lemmy specifically: because it epitomises the power of collective altruism in a world increasingly dominated by corporate greed.
Couldn’t have said it better.
On mobile we got the different Linux Phone OSes, unfortunately none of them come pre-installed (not counting the obsolete phones from Pine or Librem) and they’re still very much beta software. But they too get consistently better, both Plasma Mobile and Phosh make great strides.
There are more recent devices from Jolla, Finnish company. The only problem is the price, roughly the same as basic iPhone 17 (≈700€).
I think we need to collectively understand that freedom and privacy have a cost. That $200 phone is subsidized with the spyware baked into it and the expected income of future repairs and upgrades, ad sales, etc. a $2k phone made with modular parts and software based on open source has a much higher up-front cost, won’t be quite as sleek, will require some technical understanding, but a much lower maintenance cost.
Game consoles, phones, computers, cars and even refrigerators. If some company now considers the product a loss-leader, we should collectively shun it.
It’s a hard sell, though, when everything is super expensive and things like phones and cars are pretty much requirements for living in some places.
It’s also slightly cheaper (per unit) to manufacture a million phones vs ten thousand.
And even worse when you are poor or simply cannot pay.
We really need to find the square of the circle on this, where we can have total freedom, low cost, high modularity and grassroots origin.
I think that an progressivist approach would be the correct (basically, not static prices, but dynamical prices: you’re rich? Then you pay more; you’re poor? Then you pay less or don’t pay at all. The ones in the top do subsidize the ones on the bottom). But of course, that’s hard asf to do.
I thought we were talking about open phones. Sailfish OS is not fully open, and I see no reason to go from “open but Corpotrash” to “partially closed with a little bit less (?) Corpotrash”.
Until they finally Open-Source their libraries Jolla is just one among many.
I’m an open source zealot as much as the next but I don’t get this view honestly.
Sailfish is about the best you can get that’s not based on one of the two main OSs. Normal people could use it and it’s got the best shot to make inroads. Even if it’s just a foothold til postmarket or something else comes along I find that huge.
I’m simply not seeing the benefit over a well maintained degoogled Android ROM such as Graphene or /e/OS. The amount of work I have to out in to relearn stuff is next to none, support is higher and you know hardware support lasts long (thinking of e.g. the Murena Fairphone 6). Sailfish looks like just another corporation with partially closed Source and bumpy track record, and with hardware such as Fairphone (and many other phones) you at least got some digital mobility to move to something else if your distribution of choice goes down the drain.
I get that having a third option is always better even if all three are questionable, but I don’t see that in Sailfish either.
For me graphene and the like only enshrine the dominance of the two OSs, especially while governments seem all too happy to make laws that do the same.
We need more options to make sure all the functions of our digital lives are not beholden to two corporations. And make no mistake, Android despite being “open” is beholden to Google.
That’s my angle anyhow. Sure, it’s not fully open source but it will enforce actual openness more than using offshoots of the main two. Jmho.
Fairphones don’t come with Linux pre-installed (I think you can pick LineageOS or /e/OS iirc), but they all support Linux and the past couple models of them are basically just regular smartphones specs-wise. Probably gonna upgrade to one of those when my GrapheneOS Pixel 8 dies.
Fairphones don’t come with Linux pre-installed (I think you can pick LineageOS or /e/OS iirc), but they all support Linux and the past couple models of them are basically just regular smartphones specs-wise. Probably gonna upgrade to one of those when my GrapheneOS Pixel 8 dies.
More individual participation, less corporate involvement, zero corporate ownership of essentials.
I’ve got some bad news about Linux then, the main contibutors are companies, and the infrastructure is owned by them.
It’s not individuals who paying Linus $1.5 million a year (Under “Compensation”).
Beautifully put.
Poor zypper gets forgotten again!
Zypper is the Gen X of package managers.
You sure the guys running pacman are sitting on the right hand side of the bus? Seems a bit more like they should be in the back doing a skill check for luck and rolling a d20
The recent attacks have been against the AUR.
Which pacman doesn’t reference.In terms of sneaking in malicious code, that’s possible in the official repos of all operating systems, including the windows store.
The actual meme speaks more to the fact that windows update is enforced unless you jump through enormous flaming hoops, and it will measurably make your already running system worse as it forces the installation of things the user wouldn’t want (ie copilot) or removes functionality they do (classic control panel).
But you know… I use Arch btw.
My comment was just a joke man, wow
Sometimes it feels more like in front of the bus, and running pacman just puts you a little further up the road
considering the malware attacks if it’s yay or paru it should probably be a d2
Unless its ubuntu*
or KDE. :p Did you see how they butchered kcalc over recent years?
In a universe of enshitification, Linux is one of the few things that consistently gets better.
Try telling that to someone who had a spinning cube desktop on their 386 or 486.
Ask not how worthy an idol Linux is, but what you can do to give back to free software.
At least until the AI slop updates don’t reach the kernel (at least they’re banned from some parts of it).
Linus was openly not-anti-slop recently, so I don’t have enormous amount of hopes.
How did you get that from what he’s said? Vibe coding is slop. Holding devs 100% accountable for their AI-assisted code is explicitly not allowing slop. He is doing the latter.
I’m referring to the letter of his when he said that he’s not going to ban generated code, not gonna “wage a war” on it or whatever. It might sound like “devs are still accountable for the code they commit” and all is a good position, but like with a lot of the other shit, if you’re not explicitly ban 100% of it, you’re now in a position of arguing with bots about nonsense. You still can be tough and all, but you’re alone and the bots are numerous and nonsense is neverending.
That’s what I mean not-anti-slop, and right now it looks like being all fence-sitting about this wouldn’t actually work. I predict that he’ll either will rethink the policy, or limit the amount of patches merged significantly, or lose his mind and will write a big rant and possibly does something stupid.If “non-slop” AI art is anything to go by, then I don’t have much hope for it. I guess it will be “LGTM and it compiles”.
I think this is true of open source and open science more generally.
In the long run there’s no way that the actual desires of humanity can be out-developed by an extremely privileged group of front-runners, rent-seekers, enshittifiers, etc. (eg. proprietary software)…
The main enshitification I’ve seen has been when a project tries to financially support itself via a supported version or enterprise version. More often than not new features get developed for the paid version and the open source version becomes the community version. New features then never got put in to the community version, or it remains in a crippled state
I know this is a Linux community and therefore we love to hate on Windows…
but for anyone that hasn’t used Windows in a while, they actually finally implemented relatively decent package manager in the form of “winget”. When you add the wonderful UniGetUI on top of it you get a pretty good experience.
It had issues early on with consistency but the last ~year or two has seen it get a ton of improvement. It’s much more reliable than it used to be.
Obviously “it’s about goddamn time” and it doesn’t hold a candle to mature package manager like what’s available on Linux.
But if you’ve not experienced it before, and are forced to use Windows sometimes, it’s worth checking out.
I have a windows 10 install next to my Linux and I have to agree updates are awful. It might be windows 10 but 3 restarts for an update and the system runs like crap until the update installs. I removed a windows 11 install a while ago because I only used it to play 2 games and it might sit dormant for a few days or longer and when I got back into windows it was unusable until the updates finished. I am running 64GB of ddr4 and a 16 core amd ryzen 9 with a 16GB 9070xt. Hardware is not the issue in my opinion.
Updates are painful on modern Windows, to me it feels like they haven’t overhauled the updating system since the Windows 7 days.
It’s ridiculous that you have to restart just to update .NET and they take way too long. The major update from the last patchday took 20 minutes on my Ryzen 7 with 64GB RAM and gigabit internet - from downloading to installing and then doing three reboots.
Fedora on the other hand recently had 153 updates for me and the whole process was done in 3 minutes, with only one reboot.
Winget is really not that good. It’s better than nothing, but scoop is much better and deals with autoupdating much better.
winget on its own, yeah, I agree scoop is better. But toss UniGetUI at it and suddenly it’s a real package manager.
And UniGetUI supports multiple sources: winget, msstore, pip, .net tools, chocolatey, scoop, etc
I do wish winget was more robust on it’s own but I also appreciate the goal of getting the package handling right first and letting third parties handle the update automation, at least for now.
I’m naively optimistic that after another 5 years baking it’ll be closer to what I actually want
I unironically pacman -Syu’d today and it broke 3 applications that depended on ffmpeg (yes it did update ffmpeg correctly) all from official repos
Tried to build them all from source for like an hour but the compilation also fails, ended up symlinking the libavcodec.so into it’s previous’ version name and everything works again with zero issues (who designed this shit?)
Add a pacman hook to create a btrfs snapshot before ever update, if anything stupid breaks, rollback to the snapshot and wait a week for it to get fixed before trying again.
That would be “snap-pac” for anyone wondering, thanks for the tip but my system is not on btrfs yet, I did try all of it on a VM though so that’s my next reinstallation for sure
Add a pacman hook to create a btrfs snapshot before every update, if anything stupid breaks, rollback to the snapshot and wait a week for it to get fixed before trying again.
Eh, you’d hope. I can’t definitively say why this happens for now, but I’m seeing a surprising amount of “little bugs and quirks” seeping through, more than it used to. And that makes me worried.
It’s probably heavily dependent on distro, using Bazzite right now and the only bug I’ve run into recently is ProtonPlus not downloading Steam Tinker Launcher because “yad >= 7.2” for some fucken reason. Let me download it fucker I want to use Vortex to download my fuckoff NV modpack.
I certainly have a guess
Use a Ubuntu or Fedora based distro and only use the GUI upgrader which is designed to avoid breakage.
I don’t have problem with updates. I have problem with software bugs showing up uninvited, in places where there was no need for change. No distro hoping is gonna help that.
The bugs can be caused by improperly installed uodates (e.g apt upgrade on Ubuntu) or poorly tested package (e.g Arch)
Why are you obsessed with updates or specific distributions? It’s rarely, if ever an issue. Most package manager won’t break dependency; they’d rather not install an update anyway. And most system package manager are mature enough to not fail at this basic task, regardless of distro. There can be inconsistencies with flatpack sometimes, but that’s because they’re expected to sync with system versions of some libraries (especially graphic drivers), but that won’t happen unless you go out of your way to make it happen, and again, it’s not distro specific.
I’m talking about actual projects, adding actual bugs, that they find out are valid, and need fixed, in areas of their code that didn’t need a change to begin with. It’s a very real thing that seem to become more and more prevalent these days. And it has nothing to do with your distribution or your system updates.
its one of the few things that has consistently gotten better so far
You forget that enshittification follows popularity and market share.
Which means that as linux gets more used, and more popular, the chance for its enshitification will increase exponentially.
I think this is where Linux shines.
You already CAN find enshittification versions of Linux.
And you can find lightweight ones, security ones, ones for servers, one that’s very user friendly, etc.
I wager that’ll end up dying off too.
As linux gets more popular, more laypeople are gonna be involved in its use. more laypeople means more issues solved and found, more support needed, more time and attention required, and thanks to everyone using discord any kind of easy to find alternative support is non-existent to any and all search engines, so all that supports gonna fall back on the distro creators and individual devs… and you will see consolidation of teams and packs just to handle the enormous and ever growing load, until you eventually end up with…maybe, generously, 1-3 packs that basically become a cartel.
and, with those 1-3 packs holding the bulk of users, they’ll eventually start dictating what others can and can not do, to stay in step with them and their services. Which will see more packs falling in line with dictates or just evaporating for refusing to play the game, and thus enshitification.
and pretending it cant happen will just blindly accelerate it happening.
because this is how things always go.
Enshittification is a function of capitalism, not popularity. Unless every Linux distro gets paywalled, there is no profit incentive that would drive Linux to enshittification. The kinds of people who currently work on it for no pay will continue to work on it.
“It can never happen here” - People who it inevitably happens to.
This only applies when you are talking about comparable things (E.g. two pieces of for-profit software that do the same thing). If they don’t seem to be the same thing, then you actually have to explain how would it happen if you want to be taken seriously.
Specially when we have examples of companies trying to tighten control over GPL software immediately getting forked and having to backtrack
Classic enshittification of the kernel is kinda impossible while the Benevolent Dictator is around. And as for userland, we’ve already gone through many different enshittification attempts… Red Hat/CentOS, Poetterware, Snaps, etc… and we still survive.
Other than burnout and such, it’s very hard to kill free software that’s actively used by a lot of different enthusiasts.
I’m pretty sure that’s just capitalism.
No he’s not entirely wrong, popular demand plays a role. Plays a role in capitalism too, sometimes.
Chasing quick profit can exacerbate the issue, for sure, even a company chasing a slow and steady profit is better than one chasing quick profits, and open source better still, but honestly nothing (or at least almost nothing) is entirely immune to external pressures.
Ahhh!! You jinxed it!!
*cries in AUR supply chain attacks*
FR, I have had so few problems wiþ arch updates in þe past couple of years my update flow has become
$ archnews $ pacman -Syu --noconfirm $ yay -Qu # review and cautiously update 1 at a timeÞe last step used to be a for loop on
yay -Quoutput, but þe attacks have me being far more cautious. Still, þe issue is wiþ security, not þat I’m concerned about anyþing breaking. It happens, but it’s always a package issue and not a package manager one.E.G., a new dovecot version utterly broke all config file backwards compatibility and took down my IMAP server for a couple of frustrating days, until I downgraded it. Þat’s dovecot’s fault, not Arch’s.
zypper dup
