macrocarpa

Shift work has been a thing forever

Not sure why retail is any different.

Except there absolutely is an absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality (and more importantly, equity)

There is not. Equality is arbitrary. Equity is arbitrary. They are ideals / values that we each hold individually, and rank individually. Clearly, equality is an important value for you. Good. But your value of equality is shaped by you, not anyone else.

If you take your value set and say this should be the value set which everyone else has - you won’t change them. That’s my point. Equality is a value. It is ranked amongst other values. Do you value equality more than security? Financial independence? Safety? Control? Family? Social status? Faith? Children? Education? Career? Mastery of skill? Respect? Knowledge? Influence? Conservatism? Freedom? The environment?

For a given person you engage with, whether it be online, in person, in a relationship, over the phone, randomly in a street - their value set is intrinsic to them. Equality might not rank in their top five, or ten values. When you speak up on equality and say “you should”, people who don’t share your value set hear something different. What they hear is “You are wrong”. Speaking of which:

And you clearly don’t

you’re just another wilfully ignorant self serving misogynist who is wrong

sigh

That’s a shame. I’m sorry that you feel that way. Have to say it’s the first time I’ve been called a misogynist. I think if you met me you wouldn’t think that at all.

Your opinion of me doesn’t really matter - it doesn’t change anything. What did change things for me was reading The Mental Load by Emma. It crystallised what I already knew, and helped me to better understand the difference between contribution, effort and load.

Do you want to know why?

Then as those roles are indeed slowly being broken down it stands to reason that each successive generation is less willing to put up with them - but if you still see them as normal it will come as a surprise.

Except…entrenched gender roles are normal. This is expected human behaviour for 90% of the world. Equality, be it gender, age, ethnic or religious, is…just not how things work. It may be distasteful for you personally, but the rest of humanity doesn’t give a toss - Western civilisation is a thin smear of civility which only popped up in the past couple of hundred years, and what’s worked quite well for millennia is what’s still working pretty effectively for several billion people.

There is no absolute right and absolute wrong to gender equality, and that there is a regression or progression over time, merely opinions shaped by culture, background and opportunities. The events of the past 10 years have convinced me that the “good” parts of liberalism are unsustainable because people at their core are just…selfish. The only way to convince them to change something is if it is in their self interest. Regrettably, equality rarely aligns with self interest because it requires relinquishing something. Equality and equity of opportunity only exist when the opportunity exist. Otherwise it’s back to the dumb old shit we used to do.

Edited to add:

I didn’t phrase it well above,

The ground state for humanity is inequality. Whether we wish it or not.

The pursuit of equality and equity means these things need to be prioritised above other things.

It is hard to convince people to prioritise something they are not invested in, especially if they don’t benefit from it or value it.

you’re not missing anything, you paid attention in chemistry.

Yes.

When you look for things to be angry about, when you look for things to be resentful about, you find them.

When you look for things to be satisfied with, when you look for things to be grateful for, you find them.

I found the opposite. I have achieved far, far more through practising gratitude, knowing my values and moving towards them rather than being pressure and goal oriented.

I went for a walk this morning, in a park near my house. It was cold and grey, so.i was grateful for my gloves and for the solitude. How good is it that I can go for a walk, in a park near my house? Hear birds, breathe air see trees, smell the frost? How good that there are parks, and birds, and it’s safe, and I can walk. I want to keep doing it. I’m grateful for that.

Like I said, gratitude is hard.

It is hard to have gratitude when there is inequality

It is hard to have gratitude when competition is encouraged and enshrined by people who benefit from it

It is hard to have gratitude when the constructs in which we live seem unjust

It is hard to wake up and look around and find something to be grateful for

It is hard to be grateful when all you can see is what you don’t have

Being genuinely appreciative of what you do have leads to a quieter mind and a happier life. We have one life.

It comes across as some stupid bullshit, I know. But the resentment and frustration aren’t useful. Clarity of mind and purpose is, and is more sustainable than passion and anger.

My 2c.

https://www.jamesmollison.com/where-children-sleep

We are privileged. Gratitude is hard.

Aw thank you, I feel seen.

Memory’s a bit sketchy but yeah sounds about right

Man wait till you meet Charlie

The reason I say in person is because if the amount of information which is transmitted via direct conversation is orders of magnitude higher than through eye contact, tone, language and body language.

If you and I were talking right now, I could maintain eye contact, rotate my shoulders so I face you, position my head in a way that says I’m listening, use my voice to indicate that I’m contrite, or uncomfortable, or supportive.

It can be excruciatingly uncomfortable for people who are used to having virtual tools abstract away the hard parts of interaction. But that’s exactly what (in this case) women are saying they feel. They feel, in the real world, they’re not safe. To me, the weight of that comes from a direct interaction rather than a news article or twitter post.

My opinion etc

Gr8 b8 m8

Read their post history, it’s a troll

I think it has to happen in person.

At the heart of this is the unfortunate fact that nuance is lost in online discussion. The reason that the bear scenario is so notable is it is so polarising. “yes! That’s how I feel!” vs “you’re reducing me to a threat”

An honest and direct conversation between two peers is far more likely to have a lasting effect. Hearing what the lived experience is directly from the person who’s experiencing it is far, far more more compelling than the stark bear statement.

I don’t feel unsafe most of the time. But I have felt unsafe and vulnerable before. Thus when a female colleague told me about being followed by a guy in a park while walking her dog, and feeling torn between straight running away and keeping her pet safe, it resonated directly with me. I could see her reliving the experience and see her distress. She shouldn’t have to go through that. It’s not fair.

That conversation resonated far more completely than the bear tweet.

It’s a lot easier to identify with the bad guys if you’re assumed to be a bad guy.

“Women think I’m more dangerous than a bear? What the hell? I never did anything”

Followed by

“hey what this guy on YouTube says is true, women sexualise themselves, I mean look at instagram. This isn’t my problem,.”

I know this is a bit of an over simplification but thought 1 is what I thought.

I’m a bit older, tho and my second thought was - “but ive never felt unsafe alone with a woman, definitely have felt unsafe around some men.”

How do people have the energy for all this