Did he though? What makes you think that when he flies off the handle, he wouldn’t still beat people to near death and crucify them first, and ask questions later?
Vegeta is slightly better, but not by much. Mostly because his behaviour is somewhat more believable, as long as you’re imaginative enough to make up his off-screen self-improvement process for yourself.
Redemptions need to be earned. They do not work if the author just goes, “they’re a good guy now”.
I need to see the way the character thinks change, in a believable process with logical progress that I can comprehend.
One of the best examples of this is Gajeel. After Phantom Lord’s disbandment, he’s sitting alone in silence until Makarov comes and talks to him, asking him who he really wants to be and what he believes his future holds for him. Makarov offers him a place in Fairy Tail, and when Gajeel reminds him he’s the one who attacked and crucified the three guild members, Makarov’s face darkens and he still expresses clear hatred for this crime. Makarov clearly states that he still hasn’t forgiven him for this, but he can’t just let Gajeel wander in darkness and walk down a worse path knowing he could’ve helped him. And when he joins the guild, everyone is immediately hostile. Almost none of them accept him, and Shadow Gear later confront him and begin attacking Gajeel, until Laxus joins in and blasts him with lightning. But Gajeel accepts this punishment and does nothing to defend himself, allowing them to get their anger out. Here, he acknowledges his crimes and has to make a genuine effort to redeem himself, which he does in the following arcs.
Sometimes you need to read a little between the lines and look at how they do act differently, but similarly. It’s there, you can also choose to see that they haven’t changed, that’s the great thing about narratives, leaves a lot to interpretation.
What about all the chances he had to let them die or to kill them off while alone, but he actually goes out of his way to save them? You seem to be ignoring the good that he actually did do after this exchange.
So I’ll turn it around, after that event, what did he do to show that he didn’t change and would flip at any moment again? Why do you think he didn’t change after showing he was willing to accept whatever punishment they had? Even to kill him then and there?
I don’t think this one was flip like you’re saying, this is chapters and chapters long of him struggling through and redeeming himself with his choices and actions.
For Gajeel to get where he got, much, much more had to happen. The type of stuff I’m not sure Mashima knows how to write.
The only reason Vegeta sorta works for me, is that it’s handwaved off as having occurred off-screen. But even then it’s not a well done character redemption.
Both of these series aren’t the type of stories that get into that stuff, so they expedite all the self-improvement and interpersonal stuff involved… But when you do that, pairing a character like Gajeel with his literal assault victim, doesn’t work.
It’s a story about guilds fighting each other, calling it abuse is a stretch. They all did this stuff to each other, yeah a few take it further, but without that you don’t have a story/villian.
Also, you seem to accept that this and that can be glossed over, but stop at this arbitrary line? Seems weird, that’s all.
I called it assault. As in an attack. And unlike in a battle, where you fight to achieve a goal, Gajeel caused pain simply to cause pain.
The line isn’t arbitrary, you can gloss over a villain switching sides.
You cannot gloss over a villain going from this:
To this:
Without making at least some readers queasy along the way.
The level of mental trauma Levy would have suffered wouldn’t be a joke. Making a relationship even with a fully stabilized Gajeel, questionable.
Instead Mashima makes her one of the first to be understanding towards him, when her mental state should be closer to the kind where mentioning him causes a panic attack.
When things go into PTSD territory, when you get to the type of stuff that IRL causes people just drop relationships rather than figure things out, you simply can’t take things in certain directions while glossing over the steps to get there, without evoking visceral disgust in a lot of readers.
Fine. Have Gajeel switch sides and redeem him. Do not have him canonically pair off with and impregnate an underage girl he brutally tortured and crucified.
They didn’t gloss over it, there was plenty of arcs where he constantly improved himself and showed how he changed, despite your claim that never happened.
So why do you think he didn’t change? You’ve provided no examples, yet all the arcs show how it happened through his actions.
Again, with the narrative you are free to ignore and interpret the stories your own way.
I don’t remember the story to that extent. I remember being disgusted with how his character was handled.
You brought up points about the story I couldn’t recall, but even if his change was displayed, it wasn’t enough. It would never have been enough, not for where Mashima went with things. The endpoint we got should have been off-limits regardless.
Also, if I’m free to interpret things how I like, who is downvoting me?
Did he though? What makes you think that when he flies off the handle, he wouldn’t still beat people to near death and crucify them first, and ask questions later?
Vegeta is slightly better, but not by much. Mostly because his behaviour is somewhat more believable, as long as you’re imaginative enough to make up his off-screen self-improvement process for yourself.
Redemptions need to be earned. They do not work if the author just goes, “they’re a good guy now”.
I need to see the way the character thinks change, in a believable process with logical progress that I can comprehend.
Pulled from the internet, but yes.
One of the best examples of this is Gajeel. After Phantom Lord’s disbandment, he’s sitting alone in silence until Makarov comes and talks to him, asking him who he really wants to be and what he believes his future holds for him. Makarov offers him a place in Fairy Tail, and when Gajeel reminds him he’s the one who attacked and crucified the three guild members, Makarov’s face darkens and he still expresses clear hatred for this crime. Makarov clearly states that he still hasn’t forgiven him for this, but he can’t just let Gajeel wander in darkness and walk down a worse path knowing he could’ve helped him. And when he joins the guild, everyone is immediately hostile. Almost none of them accept him, and Shadow Gear later confront him and begin attacking Gajeel, until Laxus joins in and blasts him with lightning. But Gajeel accepts this punishment and does nothing to defend himself, allowing them to get their anger out. Here, he acknowledges his crimes and has to make a genuine effort to redeem himself, which he does in the following arcs.
Sometimes you need to read a little between the lines and look at how they do act differently, but similarly. It’s there, you can also choose to see that they haven’t changed, that’s the great thing about narratives, leaves a lot to interpretation.
Yeah that stuff doesn’t show the process. It’s just a switch that’s been flipped by the author.
It’s an explanation of how the good guys get over him joining them, not how Gajeel changed.
What about all the chances he had to let them die or to kill them off while alone, but he actually goes out of his way to save them? You seem to be ignoring the good that he actually did do after this exchange.
So I’ll turn it around, after that event, what did he do to show that he didn’t change and would flip at any moment again? Why do you think he didn’t change after showing he was willing to accept whatever punishment they had? Even to kill him then and there?
I don’t think this one was flip like you’re saying, this is chapters and chapters long of him struggling through and redeeming himself with his choices and actions.
And I don’t think it’s enough.
For Gajeel to get where he got, much, much more had to happen. The type of stuff I’m not sure Mashima knows how to write.
The only reason Vegeta sorta works for me, is that it’s handwaved off as having occurred off-screen. But even then it’s not a well done character redemption.
Both of these series aren’t the type of stories that get into that stuff, so they expedite all the self-improvement and interpersonal stuff involved… But when you do that, pairing a character like Gajeel with his literal assault victim, doesn’t work.
It’s a story about guilds fighting each other, calling it abuse is a stretch. They all did this stuff to each other, yeah a few take it further, but without that you don’t have a story/villian.
Also, you seem to accept that this and that can be glossed over, but stop at this arbitrary line? Seems weird, that’s all.
I called it assault. As in an attack. And unlike in a battle, where you fight to achieve a goal, Gajeel caused pain simply to cause pain.
The line isn’t arbitrary, you can gloss over a villain switching sides.
You cannot gloss over a villain going from this:
To this:
Without making at least some readers queasy along the way.
The level of mental trauma Levy would have suffered wouldn’t be a joke. Making a relationship even with a fully stabilized Gajeel, questionable.
Instead Mashima makes her one of the first to be understanding towards him, when her mental state should be closer to the kind where mentioning him causes a panic attack.
When things go into PTSD territory, when you get to the type of stuff that IRL causes people just drop relationships rather than figure things out, you simply can’t take things in certain directions while glossing over the steps to get there, without evoking visceral disgust in a lot of readers.
Fine. Have Gajeel switch sides and redeem him. Do not have him canonically pair off with and impregnate an underage girl he brutally tortured and crucified.
They didn’t gloss over it, there was plenty of arcs where he constantly improved himself and showed how he changed, despite your claim that never happened.
So why do you think he didn’t change? You’ve provided no examples, yet all the arcs show how it happened through his actions.
Again, with the narrative you are free to ignore and interpret the stories your own way.
I don’t remember the story to that extent. I remember being disgusted with how his character was handled.
You brought up points about the story I couldn’t recall, but even if his change was displayed, it wasn’t enough. It would never have been enough, not for where Mashima went with things. The endpoint we got should have been off-limits regardless.
Also, if I’m free to interpret things how I like, who is downvoting me?